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The Nikon 1 hybrid AF - how well does it work on AF-C?

nikon 1 af v1 v1 af

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#1 Larry

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 17:09

As I understand it, the sensor in the V1 has 73 integrated PDAF sensors and uses these with CDAF to achieve very fast and accurate AF.

How does this hybrid AF compared to the AF-S of say the D700 or D3/D3s in terms of speed and accuracy on AF-S?

How well does this hybrid AF work on AF-C with native CX lenses when used for sports/events using the current kit zoom lens at maximum focal focal length and shooting wide-open?

How well does this hybrid AF work on AF-C when used with FX/DX lenses in conjunction with an FT-1 adapter?

Do you see the Nikon 1 hybrid AF system as a model and possibly pointing the way model for the AF system in what would surely be Nikon's future F-mount DX mirrorless camera with EVF?

Edited by Larry, 19 September 2012 - 17:12 .


#2 Rags

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 22:15

As I understand it, the sensor in the V1 has 73 integrated PDAF sensors and uses these with CDAF to achieve very fast and accurate AF.

How does this hybrid AF compared to the AF-S of say the D700 or D3/D3s in terms of speed and accuracy on AF-S?

How well does this hybrid AF work on AF-C with native CX lenses when used for sports/events using the current kit zoom lens at maximum focal focal length and shooting wide-open?

How well does this hybrid AF work on AF-C when used with FX/DX lenses in conjunction with an FT-1 adapter?

Do you see the Nikon 1 hybrid AF system as a model and possibly pointing the way model for the AF system in what would surely be Nikon's future F-mount DX mirrorless camera with EVF?


I think it's a harbinger of things to come

I'm guessing the D400 will have it (w mirrorless EVF) It should be a winner cam with electronic quiet shutter option.

I had a V1 and was impressed with that aspect

Rags

#3 Larry

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 22:34

Rags, did you say you had one but no longer?

How well did your V1 and CX lenses work in AF-C mode for sports and events?

How well did the the V1 focus when uses FX/DX lenses on adapter when using AF-C on the V1?

#4 Rags

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 03:45

Hey Larry sorry for the late response, I had put the V1 behind me

the V1 for sports and events was sh*t...

When shooting a burst of motion... the EVF begins to review each of your burst, blinding you from following the motion...

When shooting an indoor event, the low light capability was lousy. The best thing about the cam there was the silent shutter and EVF for surreptitious shooting (cause you have to cover the lcd - cause of light)

The best use of the cam in my opinion is street shooting and for that a J2 would do

The focus was excellent although I wanted to test it shooting surfers in fog, but I lost confidence.

I hope this helps

Rags

Edited by Rags, 28 September 2012 - 03:48 .

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#5 Larry

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 10:36

Thank you Rags for your reply which essentially answered all my major questions and interest as to how the V1 AF works.

A pity that the V1 would not give you the option to review an image just taken on a manual basis. Presenting it automatically after an image is taken would certainly get in the way when shooting continuously. Minus this "feature" of auto review, I think of the V1's AF as possibly the harbinger of the AF system that Nikon's future F-mount mirrorless camera will have.

Aptina has recently released info on its new sensor which will ikely find its way into the next iteration of the V1 in 1-2Q if 2013. The video specs are impressive, including 1080p at 120fps. I will be monitoring this though primarily from my interest to use it as a video camera together with F-mount lenses (assuming that the FT-1 will work well enough).

http://nikonrumors.c...1-cameras.aspx/


Surfers in fog? You have high expectation of your gears ... ! :D That is a difficult task and I am not sure whether the higher-model Nikon dSLRs are up to this task. But this does speak of the use you put your cameras which I should perhaps also emulate. :good: We do not get much fog here in our country and the fogging that I experience is mostly the lens fogging up when coming out from a cold room where I stayed overnight to a hot morning in the beach. :) Focus still works but I suspect your situation is different and more difficult.

So now that you are done with the Nikon 1 system, any plans of taking up any of the growing choice of mirrorless cameras out there?

Edited by Larry, 28 September 2012 - 10:37 .


#6 Rags

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 14:51

I kept my FT1 and the 10mm I might get a N1 next year if they work the low light issues out

Nikon screwed up with this cam.

They released it before it was ready for prime time in an environment when other manufacturers had a head start.

Additionally it was way over priced. I paid a discounted $838 (US) and sold it on Ebay for $450 in 6 months (one taker)

I had a lot of faith in the quality of Nikon, but this experience (and the D800 issues) have made me a lot more cautious, skeptical and reluctant to be an early adopter.

Rags

#7 Larry

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 16:33

Sorry to hear about the hit you took on your Nikon 1 Rags.

Already observing that mirrorless cameras do not hold their value well, I was startled at how Nikon priced the V1 and J1. The high prices, plus the lack of fast lenses other than the F-mount lenses that can be adapted through the FT-1, plus the lack of any specific advantage over the m4/3 and the Sony NEX made me hold off the Nikon 1 CX Series.

Nikon's obtuse refusal to publicly acknowledge the D4/D800 AF issue and to communicate what it was doing to address this has made me hold off buying any new Nikon products as well. My D800E is strictly a live-view tripod camera because of this. So I gave up getting a D4. Despite an earlier plan to get the D600 to replace a D3100, I have put this off and will just look at this again next year. Still smarting at what Nikon has done, I have also decided to get the upcoming Zeiss 135mm f/2.0 rather than wait for Nikon's update of its 135mm f/2.0D. Little things in the grand scheme of things for sure but I want Nikon to pay for acting so insolently and so uncaringly of its loyal customers.

On another note, you mentioned an N1. What info do you have on this? Still on the Nikon 1, how well did the V1 and FT-1 work with Nikkor's prime and zoom lenses?

Thanks Rags.

#8 Rags

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 17:04

The cam worked real well in good light with my 70/200..

Posted Image

the insane reach; here is 1080mmm with a 70/200 +2X EIII is really tempting. This burst started with the surfer left of center - this is a blind shot. If it were motorsports he would be outside the frame
Posted Image

Poor light
Posted Image
Same event good light
Posted Image

Rags

#9 Anthony

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 17:06

This thread contains images made with the V1 and the FT-1. They were taken by BjornJ from a tripod on a wooden walkway over the sea, not the most stable of platforms.

http://www.fotozones...v1 +in +lofoten

I have to say that with all its weaknesses, I still love the V1. It is hardly bigger than a compact, but is much more capable, so it accompanies me everywhere. The image quality is very good except in extreme circumstances. The lenses are smaller than the equivalents in m4/3, which is a big advantage. The AF is very fast, far better than any compact. For me, the most irritating thing is the instant review in the EVF, which could surely be stopped by a firmware upgrade. It is a pity, because the camera can focus and shoot at 6fps, which beats many DSLRs, and the instant review spoils this.

#10 crowecg

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 01:30

How responsive is the EVF - is there any lag? What I'm thinking of is manual focus macro work - moving the camera back and forth until I hit the right focus and then shooting.

#11 Anthony

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:52

It is very responsive, but you would have to check if it is suitable for your purpose. Can you borrow one to test?

#12 Akira

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 19:47

How responsive is the EVF - is there any lag? What I'm thinking of is manual focus macro work - moving the camera back and forth until I hit the right focus and then shooting.


This is not the comparison of EVF, but the responses of EVF and LCD on the same camera are virtually the same.

I've used Panasonic G1 and GH2, and now I own both Nikon J1 and Sony NEX-5N. Watching the LCDs of G1, GH2 and J1, you would notice a slight amount of the lag, if you would move the camera abruptly. Compared to them, the LCD of NEX-5N is impressively lag-free.
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#13 Rags

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 23:32

If I recall, there is a lag of the EVF.

There is a sensor at the EVF that senses when you have your eye close to turn it on. Some owners put a piece of tape over it as a work around

Rags

#14 Akira

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:59

If I recall, there is a lag of the EVF.

There is a sensor at the EVF that senses when you have your eye close to turn it on. Some owners put a piece of tape over it as a work around

Rags


Oh, is that what crowecg meant by "lag"?

Edited by Akira, 30 September 2012 - 02:00 .

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#15 Larry

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 07:15

This is not the comparison of EVF, but the responses of EVF and LCD on the same camera are virtually the same.

I've used Panasonic G1 and GH2, and now I own both Nikon J1 and Sony NEX-5N. Watching the LCDs of G1, GH2 and J1, you would notice a slight amount of the lag, if you would move the camera abruptly. Compared to them, the LCD of NEX-5N is impressively lag-free.


Thanks Akira for answering what would have been my question on the sensor lag of the Nikon 1 as displayed on the rear LCD screen or through an external EVF. With the Sony NEX, there is minimal sensor lag and I notice this only when transitioning to EVF from an OVF of a dSLR. Using the NEX-5N for a few minutes, I hardly notice and even forget about the sensor lag as the NEX-5N is very responsive in contrast to the GH2 where the lag remains perceptible throughout the whole time it is in use.

Edited by Larry, 30 September 2012 - 09:20 .


#16 Akira

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:03

Larry, you are welcome. Another great thing about NEX-5N (I don't know about the other models, as I my experience is limited to this particular model) is that the enlarged image is so smooth that it is very easy to focus manually.

With my Nikon J1, I take many pictures of the alumni parties held in dim restaurants and bars where the phase detection is definitely disabled, and its AF always slows down. However, the face detection works perfectly and makes up for the loss of the phase detection, which helps the spot-on focus on the friends' faces.

Also, my very rough impression of the RAW files from J1 is that they are more flexible than those from GH2 during the post process when the images are shot either at ISO800 or 1600.

All of my experience is based on the 10/2.8 pancake which is my only dedicated Nikon 1 lens.

Edited by Akira, 30 September 2012 - 08:14 .

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#17 peroo

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 15:23

Since some of the postings above don´t match what I have experienced I have summed up my view.

1. Image review
It shows up in the EVF, but if you half press the trigger review disappears

2. Autofocus
It is really good with AFC outdoors. My experience is from a dog and children. Some modes restrict the number of focuspoints used.

3. EVF
If I pan the camera there is no lag in the EVF. The resolution in the EVF is "good enough" but not any more. You can´t verify exposure through the EVF (looks often overexposed). The switch between EVF and the screen works fine until the proximity sensor gets dirty I have had several occasions where I´m not able to use the screen. I handle my V1 as a compact so it ends up in my pocket or rucksack without any protection.

4. The mode dial
The worst thing with my V1, it often moves to movie mode when I take it out of my pocket.

5. FT1
My experience with FT1 + 70-200VRII is that it don´t work very well. Autofocus is restricted to just one sensor and the V1 are often hunting focus in low light with this lens. (D800 have no problems in the same light)

6. SB-N5 flash
It works well as a fill flash

7. Standby mode
The camera is really slow from standby to active, it is faster from off to active... I have extended the standby timer and usually use the off button instead. This problem might also be interpreted as EVF lag.

Picture quality is good for the kind of camera it is. Mine have been used for family pictures and other occasions when a D800 is to large. I am satisfied with the camera for this use. It should have been smaller, but I will not switch to J2 since I can't live without the EVF. A V2 with better EVF, a new mode dial and better autofocus with FT1 could be interesting.

#18 Larry

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 17:09

Since some of the postings above don´t match what I have experienced I have summed up my view.

1. Image review
It shows up in the EVF, but if you half press the trigger review disappears


Thank you Peroo for your reply. What happens if you shoot continuously at high frame rate?


5. FT1
My experience with FT1 + 70-200VRII is that it don´t work very well. Autofocus is restricted to just one sensor and the V1 are often hunting focus in low light with this lens. (D800 have no problems in the same light)


Is one always limited to a single focus sensor when using the FT-1 regardless of lens used?

How well does the FT-1 work in moderate lighting conditions such as indoors but with the room regularly lit (not too bright nor too dark)?

How well does the FT-1 and the 35mm f/1.8G DX or the 50mm f/1.8G DX work with the FT-1?

How about the 24-70mm f/2.8?

What would you consider as the most useful combination of the V1, the FT-1 and regular DX/FX lenses?

Would you consider getting more native CX lenses as these become available or would you rely primarily on your other Nikkor DX/FX AF-s lenses and use these on the V1 via the FT-1?


Picture quality is good for the kind of camera it is. Mine have been used for family pictures and other occasions when a D800 is to large. I am satisfied with the camera for this use. It should have been smaller, but I will not switch to J2 since I can't live without the EVF. A V2 with better EVF, a new mode dial and better autofocus with FT1 could be interesting.


Do you also currently use other mirrorless camera? I ask this so that a point of comparison could perhaps be made using the V1 against the other mirrorless camera that you use.

Edited by Larry, 30 September 2012 - 17:14 .


#19 peroo

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 18:39

Thank you Peroo for your reply. What happens if you shoot continuously at high frame rate?

Is one always limited to a single focus sensor when using the FT-1 regardless of lens used?

How well does the FT-1 work in moderate lighting conditions such as indoors but with the room regularly lit (not too bright nor too dark)?

How well does the FT-1 and the 35mm f/1.8G DX or the 50mm f/1.8G DX work with the FT-1?

How about the 24-70mm f/2.8?

What would you consider as the most useful combination of the V1, the FT-1 and regular DX/FX lenses?

Would you consider getting more native CX lenses as these become available or would you rely primarily on your other Nikkor DX/FX AF-s lenses and use these on the V1 via the FT-1?

Do you also currently use other mirrorless camera? I ask this so that a point of comparison could perhaps be made using the V1 against the other mirrorless camera that you use.



EVF is not updated while you take pictures at high framerate.

FT-1 switch mode on my camera to one focus sensor, same with 70-200 and 50. VR on the 70-200 works fine.
My test with FT-1 was done in my living room, I did another test now with 50mm f/1.4G it was better. In a well lit room it will work better, I have dim light and not a lot of contrast. I don´t have the other lenses you mentioned.

My most used CX lens is the 10mm. I use the 10-30 when traveling. The FT-1 is an option for telephoto. I don´t think I will buy more CX lenses since the camera will become to big with the 30-110. A smaller 10-30 could be interesting.

I have compared V1+70-200 with a cropped image from D800+70-200 and the quality is about the same. (and if I carry the 70-200 I can just as well carry the D800 to).

I do not own any other mirrorless cameras and chose V1 since it was quite small (and a Nikon). I switched from a P7100 to V1.

I tested with focusing on the edge of the door in this picture

Posted Image

Edited by peroo, 30 September 2012 - 18:55 .


#20 Larry

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 19:01

Thank you once again for the reply as this has been most informative.

What got me started with mirrorless camera was the attraction of using my Nikkor FX/Dx lenses with these. The attraction of the FT-1 is that my Nikkor AF-S lenses would still AF with the V1. I am thinking of matching the V1 with an 85mm f/1.4G as a light and compact 230mm f/1.4 alternative to an FX body with a 200mm f/2.0. But if the V1 is limited to just one point AF when using an FT-1, I anticipate some difficulty in taking advantage of the FT-1/V1 combo.

I typically disengage AF activation from the shutter release button and assign this to another button in my dSLRs. I also set my AF to AF-C and AF-C to always release. I do this with my D3100 all the way to my D3s. I do not think that the V1 supports this AF setup and AF operation. With other mirrorless, it is only MF but the articulating screen plus magnify makes MF very easy. Without an articulating screen plus magnify on the V1 and relying only on a one-point AF, I think it would be more difficult for me to focus my Nikkor lenses with the FT-1 on a V1 rather using MF with the same lenses on my NEX. I will have to get my hands on a V1 and FT-1 to see how this works out.

Re CX lens, do you have an interest on the upcoming Nikkor CX 18.5 f/1,8?


Edit: Just saw your photo. When using the V1 with an FT-1, is the single point AF movable and user-selectable rather than be limited to just the center AF point?

Edited by Larry, 30 September 2012 - 19:09 .






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