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#21 Carolyn

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 22:39

What papers have the best abrasion resistance if hung without glass?

Rags

I can't answer your question Rags, but I can tell you that you will need to coat the paper if you don't want the environment to damage/fade/etc... the print. And in turn, that will make it more abrasion resistant :good:
Well, unless you use metalic maybe... I don't know a thing about that paper.

Edited by Carolyn, 30 August 2012 - 22:40 .

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#22 Rags

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 00:18

yeah, I'm guessing a varnish similar to whats put on canvas (non acid)

I tried locating a print house that uses some of the papers suggested here.

Finally found a low production house that uses them and an owner who's willing to work with me

Thanks everyone for the info.

Rags

#23 yunfat

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 08:34

Thanks to you all for your contribution, what a nice thread.
Just a comment on framing and varnishing, which are highly personal...
These days I hang my prints naked to avoid it altogether, and change my walls to suit whims, allowing me to mix things up. Paperclips and thumbtacks, coins at the bottom to weigh it down. I use reverse rollers to fight curling on big prints, you will get a feel for this over time if you do enough of it... hardly rocket science.
The texture of some of the boutique matte papers I source is so unique, I find it would be a shame to put it behind glass... I consider it part of the art (since it is better than my photos usually). Encourage my clients to do the same (except of course those with young children), because if they damage a print, I give them another at cost, and it gets them back in my studio for another potential sale.
If they are huge prints, the most it could possibly cost is @ $60 to reprint one, even at 24*96 inches (I own a LFP). Damage really isn't an issue, except of course for those papers which are now no longer produced (certain papers have really made certain photos of mine shine in the past). But, if that is the case, I have a lifetime to work through paper sources to get something close, and consider it a wonderful “side” hobby of photography.
My non OBA matte paper theory in a nutshell:
You want a paper that is porous when it receives the ink, then non porous after printing (which is, of course, impossible). However, interaction between the inkset and the paper can be controlled in such a way that the paper becomes less porous after it is printed upon... this is not impossible, but it does amount to becoming a string theorist, of sorts, as competence w/regard to these complexities is a matter of protracted debate because each print occupies a physical space. I wouldn’t call it alchemy, but I devoted about 10 years to elucidate myself in these dark arts using temperature controlled LED lighting chambers, microscopic analysis, large amounts of hashish, and still know eff all. Gasp... all my recent work is printed in the sRGB color space.
A particular print will participate in a particular way with a particular environment, which can only be mitigated by performing your own controls based upon the environment in which you live and the environment of your clients. A particular matte paper will receive ink in a particular way, with pigments penetrating the paper fibers to a depth that resin coated papers cannot match, I am of the opinion that depth adds to my prints, ymmv.
I deal with extremes because I live in florida, which isn’t as bad SE Asia, but still subject to the perils of humidity.
Also, OBA’s aren’t necessarily bad. Many OBA papers have greater print stability than their non-OBA brethren. This technology has come a long way in the last five years, with the UV brightened Inkpress Rag setting (I think) the record with HP Vivera at >500 years under UV glass. Epson K3 Vivid gave up at 300 years with the same paper.

Edited by yunfat, 31 August 2012 - 08:36 .


#24 Rags

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 14:37

Hey Yungfat, on a different subject that might be of interest to you.

A few months ago we had a pissing contest about high volume Giclee printers and Graham Nash.

Part of the discussion included my mention of Harvest Productions, a high volume house dedicated to fine art reproductions. Recently I called them, because I am interested in doing very large high resolution prints. They used to use a full format camera negative to step up the image size.

Years ago the company was started by John Doe in his 3 car garage. I had trouble finding their number, because they changed their name to Jondo. Spoke to their head sales guy and he told me they almost went under in 2008. They changed their business model. They now do all the canvas work for Costco.

I asked to whom they sold their full format cam to, I would use them as a sub and have the canvas done by Jonco. He got back to me and told me he couldn't find out but they now had their step up work done by this outfit

http://artscans.com/index.html

This guy worked with Graham Nash, a name you used during our discussion, and frankly I didn't take seriously. I'm going to use him if I can get a place to hang the stuff.

You might like to consider him for your large work - he sounds pretty good

Rags

#25 Carolyn

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 15:02

Hey Rags... I'm thinking most of us know Graham Nash..... Remember Crosby Stills, Nash and Young? :good: Just as another aside.... Singer/songwriter/photographer.... print business owner.....
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#26 yunfat

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 16:01

That's interesting Rags, I only know Mr. Nash from the Epson print seminars, but he is highly regarded.

Costco uses Epson 7880 here. I think most Costco's use a 7880 for their in house LFP. Just make sure you profile to sRGB color space, because that is all they use.

#27 Rags

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 16:21

That's interesting Rags, I only know Mr. Nash from the Epson print seminars, but he is highly regarded.

Costco uses Epson 7880 here. I think most Costco's use a 7880 for their in house LFP. Just make sure you profile to sRGB color space, because that is all they use.


Thanks, I didn't know that. No wonder I have color issues....

Yup... Carolyn they are my favorite group (when when they were young)

Rags

#28 Longhiker

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 17:57

I can't answer your question Rags, but I can tell you that you will need to coat the paper if you don't want the environment to damage/fade/etc... the print. And in turn, that will make it more abrasion resistant :good:
Well, unless you use metalic maybe... I don't know a thing about that paper.

Out of curiosity, what do you use/recommend for coating the finished print. Thanks.
There is nothing worse than a brilliant image of a fuzzy concept. - Ansel Adams

#29 yunfat

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 18:06

Thanks, I didn't know that. No wonder I have color issues....


If you use the website uploader there is also a box to check, "do not retouch photos", or something similar... make sure you check that, otherwise the noritsu machine they use will try and balance the exposure, changing the black point.

#30 Carolyn

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 19:45

Out of curiosity, what do you use/recommend for coating the finished print. Thanks.


Only if it is not to be framed. Although I know lots of photogs that do it as a matter of course. I actually spray anything done on German Etching, or Museo Max even though it goes behind glass. I would also spray my H. Photo Rag Baryta, but sometimes it messes up the print, and I just can't afford to reprint to many prints... the paper and ink are expensive.
For those not using glass - It protects the photograph from moisture (even water spills to a certain extent), and other environmental things that we expose them to. Heat. Cold. Light. Read about on Wilhelm's site. He goes into it in depth.

Glass protects a print. Museum glass gives no glare, uv protection (no more than regular uv glass - which is minimal) etc... and it *looks* as though if you put your finger out - you would *touch* the print. But no, you touch glass. However it is very expensive.

Edited by Carolyn, 31 August 2012 - 19:48 .

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#31 Rags

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 21:19

Only if it is not to be framed. Although I know lots of photogs that do it as a matter of course. I actually spray anything done on German Etching, or Museo Max even though it goes behind glass. I would also spray my H. Photo Rag Baryta, but sometimes it messes up the print, and I just can't afford to reprint to many prints... the paper and ink are expensive.
For those not using glass - It protects the photograph from moisture (even water spills to a certain extent), and other environmental things that we expose them to. Heat. Cold. Light. Read about on Wilhelm's site. He goes into it in depth.

Glass protects a print. Museum glass gives no glare, uv protection (no more than regular uv glass - which is minimal) etc... and it *looks* as though if you put your finger out - you would *touch* the print. But no, you touch glass. However it is very expensive.


The glass might be polarized... hmmm... I wonder

Rags

#32 Carolyn

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 21:59

The glass might be polarized... hmmm... I wonder

Rags

Polarized? I don't think so..... Tru Vue is the company that makes the goods. Typically use Tru Vue UV, or Tru Vue Museum (with UV protection). But not polarized (at least I don't think so....)
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#33 Rags

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 22:13

Thought you might be interested (isn't the internet great?)

http://www.tru-vue.c...ue/Products/33/

#34 Carolyn

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 00:56

Thought you might be interested (isn't the internet great?)

http://www.tru-vue.c...ue/Products/33/


Yes..... I've read this.... am I missing something?
I actually attach a similar tag to the back of the photographs.... from Tru Vue...
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#35 Eb Mueller

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 01:44

This has been an informative thread! Although, I do experiment and get curious about different papers, my mainstay is Hahnemuehle paper, FA Baryta for B&W, or sometimes colour and German Etching if I want a matte surface for colour only. As far as mounting, I'm using similar museum mounting techniques to what Carolyn described. This can be fairly inexpensive when DIY and choice of material does not have to be as stringently archival - it is only for my own use and photo club exhibition.
Eb Mueller
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#36 simato73

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:46

Can someone please explain to me a thing or two about Baryta papers?

I know that Baryta comes from Barium - some Barium salt (sulfate maybe?) and the presence of this in the coating is what this paper is about.
There are several brands making Baryta papers. I guess the most famous is Hahnemuhle, what other brands?

What kind of papers are available as Baryta? Only gloss or also matte?
What type of texture? Are all very smooth?

What is so special about Baryta prints?
What type of photos benefit the most from this paper?
Is it a paper mainly for B&W or is it also for colours?

Please enlighten me.
Simone

#37 simato73

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 17:18

My contribution to the original question...

I print matte and semi-glossy papers. My old printer (Epson 2200) cannot print glossy, but I don't care because I am not that fond of them.

I started with Epson Enhanced Matte because it is cheap, easy to use and I could find it in 13" rolls - important because I like to print panos.
I also printed on Epson Premium Semi-gloss.

Later I started using Moab Lasal Photo Luster in sheets and Entrada Rag Natural 190, both in 13" roll, sheets and cards.
For panoramic cards I also use Museo Artist, also a matte paper.

Some time ago I bought a roll of Moab Museum Rag in 13" roll. A very nice, thick paper but I never got acceptable results on this printer even after finding a newly made profile from Moab.
I suspect I need a more modern printer to make it work.

Living in Europe it is not easy to get Moab papers, so I am looking for alternatives.
If you have suggestions please let me know.
I am not that experienced in printing so it's not worth suggesting very expensive papers.

I would like to try matte and semi-gloss/lustre papers that can do the job in a similar way to the papers I was using, that are not excessively expensive so I am less afraid of experimenting, and that are available in a number of sizes up to A3+, and possibly also as 13" rolls.

Suggestions of retailers, preferably in the UK, also very welcome.

Last thing: yes I am considering getting a new printer. I am thinking of an Epson R3000. Should do everything the 2200 does, only better. Still able to use roll paper; not too big for my room.
It does not print wider than 13" but probably I would not make bigger prints even if wider printers weren't as big and expensive as they are.
Simone

#38 afx

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:48

I know that Baryta comes from Barium - some Barium salt (sulfate maybe?) and the presence of this in the coating is what this paper is about.

See
http://en.wikipedia....papers_.28FB.29
http://www.luminous-...rs/baryta.shtml
http://www.luminous-...ters/tale.shtml

There are several brands making Baryta papers. I guess the most famous is Hahnemuhle, what other brands?

Plenty...
I use Canson Canson Infinity - Baryta Photographique 310
(Canson is the oldest paper mill still in production, even older than Hahnemühle).
Tecco, Harman, Fuji, Illford, ... they all offer Barytas.

What kind of papers are available as Baryta? Only gloss or also matte?
What type of texture? Are all very smooth?

As far as I know only semi glossy papers that are quite smooth.

What is so special about Baryta prints?

History ;-)
Seriously. Try it yourself.
Deep blacks, good color and Baryta papers are usually fiber based and have good archival qualities.

What type of photos benefit the most from this paper?
Is it a paper mainly for B&W or is it also for colours?

I have more color prints on Baryta than BW, but most would consider it a BW paper.

cheers
afx
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#39 afx

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:32

My old printer (Epson 2200) cannot print glossy,

Seriously?
Why?

Living in Europe it is not easy to get Moab papers, so I am looking for alternatives.

Have a look at Museo Textured Rag. Still not as widely available as the European manufacturers, but easy enough at least in Germany.

I am not that experienced in printing so it's not worth suggesting very expensive papers.

Expensive is relative ;-)
The most expensive one I ever tried was Canson BFK. Wow... best colors on a matte I have ever seen. But it costs 50% more than a typical Baryta.

Last thing: yes I am considering getting a new printer. I am thinking of an Epson R3000. Should do everything the 2200 does, only better. Still able to use roll paper; not too big for my room.

The spindles on the R3000 are very small, so you will have to deal with a heavy curl. The main reason why I did not even look for roll paper for my R3000.

cheers
afx
"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
My latest book: The AfterShot Survival Guide  
sRGB clipping sucks and Adobe RGB is just as bad  Still no clue how to take decent pictures though, see afximages.com ;-(

#40 simato73

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:15

Wow...
Thanks for the thorough reply, very informative.

See
http://en.wikipedia....papers_.28FB.29
http://www.luminous-...rs/baryta.shtml
http://www.luminous-...ters/tale.shtml


Plenty...
I use Canson Canson Infinity - Baryta Photographique 310
(Canson is the oldest paper mill still in production, even older than Hahnemühle).
Tecco, Harman, Fuji, Illford, ... they all offer Barytas.


After writing my post I spent half a day doing some research and found most of the brands you mentioned.
Still, there are a lot of variations and usually a given brand may make more than one type of Baryta paper.
After my reading, especially in Luminous Landscape, I came to Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique as the paper I would try first.

As far as I know only semi glossy papers that are quite smooth.


Well that's interesting. What I read was not so clear in this respect. I had the impression that most baryta papers were very glossy, and some were semi glossy - all of them very smooth as you say.
I prefer if they are as you say, mostly semi glossy.

History ;-)
Seriously. Try it yourself.
Deep blacks, good color and Baryta papers are usually fiber based and have good archival qualities.


I have more color prints on Baryta than BW, but most would consider it a BW paper.

cheers
afx


That's also interesting.
From mini-reviews I read on the B&H site I realised many people use baryta papers also for colour work, but the reviews on Luminous Landscape were stressing more the application for B&W printing.
I would like to start doing some B&W so barytas would be a good choice.
However so far the vast majority of my photography is in colour so for me it is very important that baryta papers shine also for printing colours.

Seriously?
Why?


All the reviews say that the Epson 2200 (2100 in Europe) has massive amounts of bronzing when printing on glossy paper.
So, technically it can print glossy, but it does not give good results.
I've never tried myself - could not find a reason to invest money to prove that it would not work well, as trusted reviewers state.
Besides as I said I am not that fond of glossy papers.

Have a look at Museo Textured Rag. Still not as widely available as the European manufacturers, but easy enough at least in Germany.

Expensive is relative ;-)
The most expensive one I ever tried was Canson BFK. Wow... best colors on a matte I have ever seen. But it costs 50% more than a typical Baryta.


I might try the Museo Textured Rag if I can find it at a reasonable price. What other papers could it be said to be similar to?
The Canson BFK maybe is a bit out of the price range I would consider for most print work, but maybe I could try some small sizes just for the sake of trying and then if it is really so good use it on "special" prints.

The spindles on the R3000 are very small, so you will have to deal with a heavy curl. The main reason why I did not even look for roll paper for my R3000.


I thought that the R3000 could use manual feed from the back to avoid this problem with thick papers?

PS: I forgot to mention when I said that the 2200 is old, that none of the baryta papers have profiles for it. All these papers came out when the 2200 has already been superseded by newer models and the paper manufacturers have not bothered.

Edited by simato73, 18 November 2012 - 10:23 .

Simone




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