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#81 Ann

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 23:58

Vr8ce:

I suspect that you are exactly the kind of customer that the Development team had in mind when they conceived the idea for Lightroom originally. In fact, Lr is very much the baby of Thomas Knoll himself who, together with his brother John, was the original inventor and creator of Photoshop itself more than 20 years ago.

The point is that Lr was designed to be simple, reasonably priced and self-contained and to target the limited needs of many photographers.
Lr Users should be prepared to either accept those limitations; or they have to recognise the need to buy more advanced tools if they want more flexibility and capability than Lr was ever intended to provide.

My problem is that I am used to having a full array of editing and image-creation tools at my disposal so I have no need nor desire for a restricted application like Lr in addition to the more sophisticated tools which I already have and use on a daily basis to do everything which Lr can do — and much more besides..

However, I do criticise the way in which Lightroom's UI has been designed because I think that it provides a cramped and messy workspace. And I have a very large monitor so I can't imagine how bad it must be on a small laptop?! (I actually get a very real attack of claustrophobia every time that I wander into Lr!)

I also criticise the limited capabilities and inflexible structure of its Library System and I know that many other people do too — even those who find Lr to be suited to their purposes well enough in other ways.
Perhaps this is the result of trying to economise and simplify operations too much?

Edited by Ann, 01 March 2013 - 00:02 .


#82 retief

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 00:06

Adjustment Layers have existed for more years and versions of Photoshop than I can remember! (Probably more than ten years?)

Smart Filters and Smart Objects are more recent.

All of them remain editable and re-doable at any time providing that you save your Layered file. And repaintable Layer Masks let you limit effects to individual parts of an image— you need never Erase or destroy anything .

Cloning and image manipulation can also be done on separate Layers so that the underlying image is not changed permanently in any way.

This is completely non-destructive editing and goes FAR beyond anything that you can accomplish in only either Lr or in ACR itself.
-------

Addendum:
I have just checked: Adjustment Layers were introduced 16 years ago in the old (pre CS) Photoshop version 4.0 in 1996!

:)


Ann, the definition of "non-destructive editing" is that nothing is changed in the file itself, and you are correct, the original NEF is not modified, but the PSD most certainly is. As you point out, adjustment layers have been around for years, and for most of those years you could do very little to change a layer, some blending options, etc, but not the direct parameters. Now, with Smart Objects we have more options, I can't remember if every single one is available or not, but even if they are the penalty I pay for this is that I now have huge files to deal with, yet another file to manage (the PSD), as well as the added complexity of smart objects and layers. Both LR4 and NX2 do not have this penalty of either complexity or greatly expanded file size. Again, not one being better or worse, just different ways to work. I, personally, have never gotten comfortable with the complexities of multiple layers, especially the issues of interactions between them. Now, to be fair, this may be at least partially my fault, for not taking the time to find the right class to get the right explanation of how all this works. On the other hand, if I can figure this out much faster in NX2 or LR4 ......
Bill Dewey

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#83 makmanos

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 00:36

[/size]
Perhaps you have yet to discover what you are actually missing?

:wink:

An "Open and Enquiring Mind" is always to be encouraged!!!!!

:drinks:


Couldn't agree more about those bits of wisdom as a general guideline in ones life. Not regrettably at all, I don't see Photoshop fitting that role in my life at the moment though :wink: .

I actually have good reasons to believe that Adobe is a big inefficiently run company in a lot that they do. I mean look at acrobat reader or the flash player. Applications that behave like they own your desktop.
Every time you restart, there is some "important" update to install and you have to run through the update dialogues. It gives me the impression that the developers at Adobe seem to be releasing a new line of debug statement every other night and they desperately need you to know about that.

Edited by makmanos, 01 March 2013 - 00:44 .

-Manos

#84 Ann

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 20:08

Bill:

Re:

Ann, the definition of "non-destructive editing" is that nothing is changed in the file itself, and you are correct, the original NEF is not modified, but the PSD most certainly is.



That is not quite right.

The normal definition of "non-destructive editing" is that nothing is changed PERMANENTLY in the file itself. If you use Adjustment Layers and Layer Masks, you can click on that layer again at any time in the future and reopen the Curve, levels, hue/sat panel again to reset or change any of your original settings on the fly.

And you just paint with Black on a Layer Mask to protect that area from being affected by the settings; or with White to affect a bigger area. Grey does it partially of course.

You never use the Eraser to remove anything from the underlying image either: you would use a Layer Mask instead.

Quite simple really: "Black conceals; White reveals; and percentage tints of Grey do it to varying degrees in between.

#85 Ann

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 20:23

I mean look at acrobat reader or the flash player. Applications that behave like they own your desktop.
Every time you restart, there is some "important" update to install and you have to run through the update dialogues. It gives me the impression that the developers at Adobe seem to be releasing a new line of debug statement every other night and they desperately need you to know about that.



The problems for Acrobat Reader is that it is free and on just about every desktop on the planet!

Oh Joy and Rapture for MalwareCreators (Global) Unlimited Inc.. If you want to infect as many computers as you possibly can, then Reader is the perfect vector. Flash Player is similar.

Corrective measures are taken as quickly as possible when ever another security breach is uncovered and a patch is posted as soon as it is available. That is why you get those Update advisories and it is foolish to ignore them.



#86 makmanos

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 20:46

The problems for Acrobat Reader is that it is free and on just about every desktop on the planet!

Oh Joy and Rapture for MalwareCreators (Global) Unlimited Inc.. If you want to infect as many computers as you possibly can, then Reader is the perfect vector. Flash Player is similar.

Corrective measures are taken as quickly as possible when ever another security breach is uncovered and a patch is posted as soon as it is available. That is why you get those Update advisories and it is foolish to ignore them.


Running numbers of other free and far more important and complex applications on my PC, including the web browser that I am typing from right now, I'd say that that's a terribly poor excuse. Every single one of them is prone to the same if not more attacks but none of them employs the annoying "hey I have a new update for you look at me and play with me" attitude that Adobe software does.
On top of that, being a professional software developer myself, delivering desktop apps to customers through automatic updates as well, I have a well formed personal opinion about how proper software development and delivery should be done.
I don't suspect they are doing it for the reasons you imply they might. Most likely they are doing it because they are primarily used as plugins to browsers and work "hidden" under the hood and they employ the update routine as an abusive and annoying tactic to remind people of their existence.
I am using Foxit reader for pdf docs more than adobe primarily because I got annoyed. Flash is something not as easy to get rid of.

Edited by makmanos, 01 March 2013 - 20:56 .

-Manos

#87 retief

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 20:47

Bill:

Re:

That is not quite right.

The normal definition of "non-destructive editing" is that nothing is changed PERMANENTLY in the file itself. If you use Adjustment Layers and Layer Masks, you can click on that layer again at any time in the future and reopen the Curve, levels, hue/sat panel again to reset or change any of your original settings on the fly.

And you just paint with Black on a Layer Mask to protect that area from being affected by the settings; or with White to affect a bigger area. Grey does it partially of course.

You never use the Eraser to remove anything from the underlying image either: you would use a Layer Mask instead.

Quite simple really: "Black conceals; White reveals; and percentage tints of Grey do it to varying degrees in between.



We dither all we want on the specific definition, my point is that none of these products is without its faults. The main point I am making is that we all have different ways to work. With Photoshop I find:
1. The greatly increased file size to save with Layers, especially including Smart Objects, is an annoyance
2. Having a seperate PSD that I have to keep track of is an annoyance
3. Having to keep a sidecar file around that I have to manage to keep my RAW conversion settings is an annoyance
4. The method of doing selective adjustments I find to be far more difficult when using the standard CS tools than in either NX2 or LR4, or even using NIK Vivesa

Perhaps what I need is the "Ann Immersion Training Course in Photoshop Use" to get me past all of this :D Then again, I may just be too old, dumb and stuck-in-my-ways to understand it.

What is the most frustrating to me of all of this is the lack of decent integration. In an ideal world this would be my workflow:

1. Cull, tag and keyword in Photo Mechanic
2. Raw development in NX2
3. Any cloning, last filter bits in Photoshop

This, of course, begs the whole issue of UI, because each of these programs is a painful experience in one place or another, UI wise. And, of course, they don't share any knowledge of edit steps and parameters, so no matter what I am stuck with multiple files of one sort or another.

So at this time my workflow is:
1. Same step 1 in Photo Mechanic
2. Raw development in LR4, I pretty much ignore the catalog
3. Save to TIFF for final work in Photoshop and/or NX2

Now, if someone can show me how to do a selective adjestment on a range of color/area as easily in Photoshop as I can in either NX2 or LR4 you might convince me to take another look at a purely ACR/Photoshop workflow. But I sure have not found it yet.
Bill Dewey

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#88 Ann

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 21:01

Who knows but you might get your wish . . . sooner rather than later?!

;)



#89 Ann

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 21:25

Manos:

I would rather be warned of a possible vulnerability than left in ignorance!

I don't use Reader normally anyway: I have Firefox set to open all incoming PDFs in Acrobat Pro (which also checks for and posts notices concerning Security and other Updates — as do most of the more responsible software manufacturers these days.

#90 makmanos

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 21:39

Manos:
I would rather be warned of a possible vulnerability than left in ignorance!


Likewise. The probability that Adobe does an update almost every week for that reason in reality I would bet is very close to zero.
-Manos

#91 wildoat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 21:53

We dither all we want on the specific definition, my point is that none of these products is without its faults. The main point I am making is that we all have different ways to work. With Photoshop I find:
1. The greatly increased file size to save with Layers, especially including Smart Objects, is an annoyance
2. Having a seperate PSD that I have to keep track of is an annoyance
3. Having to keep a sidecar file around that I have to manage to keep my RAW conversion settings is an annoyance
4. The method of doing selective adjustments I find to be far more difficult when using the standard CS tools than in either NX2 or LR4, or even using NIK Vivesa

Perhaps what I need is the "Ann Immersion Training Course in Photoshop Use" to get me past all of this :D Then again, I may just be too old, dumb and stuck-in-my-ways to understand it.

What is the most frustrating to me of all of this is the lack of decent integration. In an ideal world this would be my workflow:

1. Cull, tag and keyword in Photo Mechanic
2. Raw development in NX2
3. Any cloning, last filter bits in Photoshop

This, of course, begs the whole issue of UI, because each of these programs is a painful experience in one place or another, UI wise. And, of course, they don't share any knowledge of edit steps and parameters, so no matter what I am stuck with multiple files of one sort or another.

So at this time my workflow is:
1. Same step 1 in Photo Mechanic
2. Raw development in LR4, I pretty much ignore the catalog
3. Save to TIFF for final work in Photoshop and/or NX2

Now, if someone can show me how to do a selective adjestment on a range of color/area as easily in Photoshop as I can in either NX2 or LR4 you might convince me to take another look at a purely ACR/Photoshop workflow. But I sure have not found it yet.


Wise words, I imagine based on reality rather than sentiment.
Editing and workflow really can be the ruination of the enjoyment of a keen photographer
and I suspect a few pros also.
I use Nikon software for 99.99% of my editing and workflow if I'm honest I'm
100% happy. :)
To some extent I genuinely feel photoshop is a smoke screen and a distraction from the noble art.
You may think I talk rubbish and that's fine, you wouldn't be the frist :D
 

 

 

It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.- Elliott Erwitt

 

 


 


#92 Ann

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:09

Tony:

I always felt that my Darkroom experience was a major reason for my enjoyment of Photography.

Having TOTAL personal control of the entire process of picture-making from setting up the shot, making the exposure, and creating the finely-tuned final prints during the Film Era was then, and still is in the digital era, why I continue to be interested in making pictures.

Pointing, Shooting and running to the nearest Lab.; or shooting JPEG snapshots and shoving the unedited Camera-controlled photo onto a computer; would have ceased to be of interest to me entirely within 60 days — never mind 60 years!

Edited by Ann, 01 March 2013 - 22:51 .





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